Host:   Lisa McRee - August 5th, 1998
(Stephen Black Interviewed).

HOMOSEXUAL CONVERSION?

GUESTS:  Stephen Black & Urvashi Vaid 

LISA McREE, Host: The controversy over whether homosexuals can be turned into heterosexuals is gaining renewed attention. Next week, conservative Christian groups launch another ad campaign encouraging gays to seek help in becoming heterosexual. You'll recall that the ad that ran last month in major newspapers featured a woman who called herself "a wife, mother, and former lesbian."

Joining us now from Oklahoma City is Stephen Black. He says that with the help of his church, he went from being gay to a heterosexual, and he is with the First Stone Ministries, a group that claims to help gays change their orientation. And with us here, Urvashi Vaid. She is the director of the Policy Institute of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. And good morning to both of you. Thank you for coming to have a discussion with us about this. Stephen, I'm going to start with you. How long were you living in a gay lifestyle?

LISA McREE: And were you happy, unhappy?

STEPHEN BLACK: You know, some of the time I was really happy. That's all I knew. That was the lifestyle that I knew at that time, and then there was a time period in my life two years before I actually exited the gay lifestyle that I became increasingly aware that I needed some change in my life. Some things happened in my personal life. I lost a brother, started making me think about eternal issues, and...

LISA McREE: So you needed -- you were looking for some spiritual fulfillment at that point in your life, and you looked inside the church for that, right?

STEPHEN BLACK: Correct, yes.

LISA McREE: And what made you think that the two things were mutually exclusive, that you couldn't find spiritual fulfillment and maintain the sexual orientation you believed was yours?

STEPHEN BLACK: Well, I had a personal encounter with Jesus Christ. I had an encounter with the Holy Spirit. And I started reading the scriptures and started seeing some things that challenged me. And as I began to seek the lordship of Jesus Christ, He changed me. He set me free.

LISA McREE: So what does the therapy, exactly, entail, Stephen? How do you begin? Where does it take you?

STEPHEN BLACK: Well, it's a journey. It's a long journey. You begin to deal with the root issues of your life. The things in my personal journey were issues of molestation as a child that were uncovered, and I began to look at those things. I began to look at the envy and the idolatry and the things of feeling inadequate in my own maleness and gender insecurity, and began to deal with those things forthrightly. And as I was able to look at those issues in my own heart and address those issues, I started finding myself being able to see myself as male and embracing masculinity, and feeling more what would be heterosexual. But it was, you know, really embracing God's intention of creation for me and His intention for sexuality in my life.

LISA McREE: What is the difference between controlling an addictive behavior-- is -- which is what some Christians say this is, and being brainwashed?

STEPHEN BLACK: I'm not sure I understand the question.

LISA McREE: Well, Urvashi, we were talking about this during the commercial break. Some of the people who are in this ministry say that they're controlling an addictive behavior, that it's not -- you're not predestined to a sexual orientation. Others say it's                      brainwashing. What do you say?

URVASHI VAID, National Gay and Lesbian Task Force: Right. We say homosexuality is not an illness, it's not a mental illness, it's not a medical condition, it's not an affliction. To say that homosexuality is an illness was the same as say -- is as nonsensical as saying that heterosexuality is an illness. Sexual identity is deep- seated, it's fundamental. It's God-given, if you believe in God. And that's part of our nature. Some of us have same- sex sexual orientation, some of us are heterosexually oriented. We...

LISA McREE: What is the risk to the person, to the soul, by trying to cure something that you say is natural, is born in you as

(crosstalk). 

URVASHI VAID: It's healthy, natural, and normal to be -- for human beings to have sexual identities and to have a sexuality. What -- and I think it's perfectly reasonable and great that somebody who's having a struggle with their sexual identity, like this gentleman,  would go and seek treatment, counseling, whatever they need to be healthy and whole. 

LISA McREE: To be who they really are, whoever that is.

URVASHI VAID: To be whole. I don't -- we don't have any...

LISA McREE: (inaudible)...

URVASHI VAID:... problem with that. I think...

LISA McREE: What do you have a problem with?

URVASHI VAID:... what we have a problem with these advertising campaign is that it's sending out the wrong message. Homosexuality is not an illness. And I think as -- the other problem we have is that as people pursue a healthy relationship with their own sexual lives and their own sexual selves, that they need to be aware of snake oil salesmen. I mean, the cure rate for this so-called therapy is about 30 percent, you know. The American Psycholog...

LISA McREE: At least in short term. We don't even know long term.

URVASHI VAID: Exactly, there's no studies that have been done long term. The American Psychological Association rejects this so-called therapy and has taken strong stands against reparative therapy. Homosexuality is not classified as a mental illness or a disorder by the APA and leading psychiatrists and psychologists. So we think people need to be very wary of what these promoters of the therapies are selling. At the same time, I have enormous compassion and understanding for people who are struggling with sexual identity. Many gay, lesbian, transsexual, transgender people struggle with their own identities before coming out.

LISA McREE: But Stephen, what we were talking about earlier is, is this a treatment you got for something that you consider an illness, or was this just a way to control your natural urge? I mean, what -- how did you approach it yourself when you went into this therapy? Did you go in and say, "I'm sick, fix me, and this can be cured," or did you say, "Help me control my natural instinct"?

STEPHEN BLACK: Actually, it was none of that. As I began having a relationship with Christ, he began to deal with the issues of my heart. And it -- I kind of naturally progressed into being able to be free from having same-sex attraction. And that is something...

(interruption) URVASHI VAID: May I say...

STEPHEN BLACK:... that happened in my life.

URVASHI VAID: May I say that there are many gay, lesbian, bisexual people who are Christian, who have a relationship with their faith, who are deeply religious. And many mainline denominations have welcomed gay and lesbian people into their ministries. The Presbyterian Church, the Lutheran Church, even the Catholic Church, the bishops have made very affirming statements. And certainly mainstream Jewish denominations have done so. So I think that it's a false opposition to say that all -- it's either religion or homosexuality.

LISA McREE: Stephen, if you'll stay right there, Urvashi, stay right here, we're going to come back, take a quick commercial break and be back with the motivation behind this. Is someone here being used? We'll find out when Good Morning America continues.

(Commercial Break)

LISA McREE: Welcome back. We continue our discussion this morning that was launched by a series of ads that you may have seen in some of the major papers in this country, ads that claimed that homosexuality is curable, and if not curable, treatable, as if it's a disease or an affliction. We're joined this morning by Stephen Black. And Stephen was in a gay lifestyle for a number of years before becoming a Christian and leaving his gay lifestyle behind and going on to have a heterosexual lifestyle. Urvashi Vaid is here with us, and she's the director of the Policy Institute of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. 

LISA McREE: Stephen, what do you think about these ads?

STEPHEN BLACK: Well, I think they're great. I think that America is finally getting to be able to hear about some stories of people's lives who have genuinely have been changed. They're having a renewed -- in their sexuality --You know, it's time that America hear our side of the story. People are finding lasting freedom from homosexuality, and, you know, it's -- I -- you know, it's -- the issue's been made to be political, and I don't think that these ads in nature are political. And I think it's to...

(Interruption) URVASHI VAID: Well, that's completely...

STEPHEN BLACK:... offer hope for people that are genuinely wanting hope.

LISA McREE: Urvashi?

URVASHI VAID: I think that's a very naive interpretation of what's going on with these ads. Every one of the organizations that is sponsoring these ads is engaged in political battles to roll back civil rights for all sorts of people, including gay people. This is not about sickness or sin, this is a -- about political exploitation of an issue for certain advantage in the midterm elections.

LISA McREE: Come November, the (crosstalk).

URVASHI VAID: The Christian Coalition...

LISA McREE:... the conservative right...

URVASHI VAID:... the...

LISA McREE:... is trying to get itself back together, is that what you're saying?

URVASHI VAID: Exactly. The -- you know, this is -- we are the hot-button issue that is being seized on. And my view is that people like the gentleman in Oklahoma are being exploited terribly, just as I and other gay people are being exploited.

LISA McREE: Do you worry about the impact on young people out there who have been struggling with their sexual identity but are very clear that -- about who they are in their heart, but have had a difficult -- that this may even push them further back in the closet and prolong their angst and suffering about who they really are and coming to terms with that?

URVASHI VAID: I absolutely think that this ad campaign sends really negative signals to people who are gay and lesbian, who are coming out of the closet. On the other hand, the good news is that there is a vigorous movement, there is debate about homosexuality everywhere, there's a discussion about it going on in this country, so there's lots of images that are positive and affirming. And I hope that anybody who is struggling with their sexual identity who is watching this show knows that there are balanced places where they can go for counseling.

LISA McREE: Stephen, as a Christian, you operate from a place of love, right, and forgiveness and of understanding.

STEPHEN BLACK: Yes.

LISA McREE: Do you worry that ads like these, that campaigns like these, are going to cause pain for people who are struggling with their identity, more because of their families or society, and that it's just going to prolong their agony?

STEPHEN BLACK: Well, there's pain in this life, and as we begin to deal with the issues of this particular topic of dealing with same-sex attraction, for those who want to find freedom from what they feel is a painful lifestyle, I think it offers them hope. I know in 1982-- when I was in the gay lifestyle over 16 years -- or 16 years ago, I would have loved to have seen something like this, because I was one of those people that believed they were born gay. And I would have adamantly told you I was born homosexual. And I have found lasting freedom, and...

LISA McREE: But Stephen, do you worry, do you ever worry that someday, 15 years down the road, that you're going to have a different sort of realization?

STEPHEN BLACK: That I will personally?

LISA McREE: Do...

STEPHEN BLACK: I won't personally. I'm...

URVASHI VAID: Well...

STEPHEN BLACK:... totally convinced in my heart of -- and sure of who I believe in, and nothing is going to change that.

LISA McREE: Stephen, thank you. Urvashi, we are out of time, but thanks for staying with us.

The following is a review by Family Research Council's
 "Culture Facts" on this interview.  

Notice the kind of questions given to Black.

ABC's Curveballs 

On August 5, Good Morning America host Lisa McRee interviewed former homosexual Stephen Black of First Stone Ministries in Oklahoma and lesbian activist Urvashi Vaid. Black was given little chance to rebut Vaid's arguments. Vaid was assisted often by McRee, who fired many hostile questions at Black. Some excerpts:

— What is the difference between controlling an addictive behavior
— which is what some Christians say this is
— and being brainwashed?
— What is the risk to the person, to the soul, by trying to cure something that you (Vaid) say is natural, is born inyou?

— We're going to … take a quick commercial break and be back with the motivation behind this. Is someone being used?
— Do you worry about the impact on young people out there who have been struggling with their sexual identity ... that this may even push them further back in the closet and prolong their angst and suffering about who they really are and coming to terms with that?
— Do you worry that ads like these, that campaigns like these, are going to cause pain for people who are struggling with their identity, more because of their families or society, and that it's just going to prolong their agony?

Notice Lisa McRee's Assumptions in her questions.

• assumed that Black was brainwashed.

• risky to souls, perhaps inborn.

• questioned Black's integrity and motivation.

• brought up liability scare tactics concerning young people struggling and that it would cause unnecessary pain to the struggler.

• NOTICE that Lisa was very liberally agreeable with Vaid.

— RHK